Talk:Kaifeng Jews

Irrelevant links

Two users have recently been adding links to the "see also" section, which seem completely irrelevant to this article. The latest in this series is Jews and Judaism in Japan, added by User:Ghostexorcist. Please explain what possible relevance 19th-century-and-later Jewish communities in Japan could have to an article about a pre-18th-century Jewish community in China. Zsero 19:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Because they are all Asian Jews. --Ghostexorcist 10:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

So should we have "see also" to all Jewish articles on WP, because they are all about Jews, somewhere in the world? What's significant about the fact that both communities, from utterly different origins and at different periods, happened to be situated in "Asia", which is after all the continent where Jews come from, and where the majority of Jews have always lived (except for those 210 years in Egypt)? -- Zsero 15:19, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Israel is in Asia - so is Persia - were you referring to "oriental" (aka east-Asian) peoples? Btw, Zsero, not every single Jew was taken to Egypt ...

Law of return

This article contradicts the Law of Return article which says anyone under Nuremberg Law standards are considered Jewish. Can someone verify? --Gary123 (talk) 17:44, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• Jews are only with mitocondrial dna of the jewish mother and not only y cromossome of the father

father jew + mother goy(im)/nom-jew(ish) = nom-jew(ish) = goy(im)

only mother jew = jewish forever(not goyim/gentile/nom-jew) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.13.252.107 (talk • contribs)

The Kaifeng Jews do not meet the requirements for the Law of return since their mothers were Chinese (i.e. not Jewish). --Ghostexorcist (talk) 23:23, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Some were, some were not - if the historical sources are to be trusted. These were a mixed people, some coming from either the Levant, Persia, or perhaps even Europe.

Kaifeng Jews today

The last paragraph in the "Kaifeng Jews today" section could use some cleaning up. I'm not just talking about the link to another wiki page (I'd do that myself) but rather the contradiction regarding Kaifeng Muslims' relations towards the Kaifeng Jews: an earlier paragraph in that same section claims the opposite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.161.152.25 (talk • contribs)

That's because that last paragraph is nothing but a fictional story that some person keeps on adding to the page. I've removed it for a second time. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 07:45, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Please let's try to keep that bit about "rumours of pogroms" off the page. I just came from Kaifeng, I'm a Jew, and my girlfriend is Muslim. We had a lovely time and none of the local Muslims seemed keen to start a pogrom against me. They seemed even less keen to start a pogrom against the two Jews in their immediate vicinity, who they happily showed us to. The lady there runs kind of a touristy (for Jews) shop/museum out of her house. She certainly didn't fear pogroms, and indeed, they'd be quite impossible, as she confirms that most of the Kaifeng Jews today live outside of Kaifeng, and it's just her tiny family which does. She complained a lot more about the state of Israel and the PRC not recognising her Jewishness than anything. That entire paragraph is fairly laughable. The Muslims here would be called infidels by the Malays or Arabs or any other group keen to pogrom anybody.

How about you try rephrasing that so it doesn't sound like I was the person who added it. Anyway, I think the person who originally added that perceived a historical conflict between the Chinese Jews and Muslims to be modern. During the 19th century, two Chinese church delegates were sent to the Kaifeng Jewish community in order to procure some of their holy scriptures. Both of them noted tensions between the two groups in their travel journals. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 04:56, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure in the 19th Century a visitor to London or New York might have noticed tension between Jews and Christians, but that hardly has any bearing to how relations between the communities stand at present.

current status as of Year x

(2018) is not addressed - I hope someone will have time to provide a few links to Western and Eastern perspectives. I don't have enough knowledge to know whether this headline has evidence to back it up: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/25/world/asia/china-kaifeng-jews.html Chinese Jews of Ancient Lineage Huddle Under Pressure By CHRIS BUCKLEYSEPT. 24, 2016 MichelleInSanMarcos (talk) 20:19, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Chinese name of Jews and Shi Kefa

Chinese words are of single syllables, how can 猶,太 be translated into three syllables? it would be seen as vandalism if correctness is constantly reverted.

And Shi Kefa is a revered person in China, I am not any sort of zealous patriot, but shouldn't we be more cautious, before hastily giving him some new nationality, regarding the respect of fact and feelings of some viewers?

In this case, "Stone" in Chinese is Shi, 石 However the Shi of Shi Kefa is another Shi, 史, which literally means "History". judging from the source given in the previous sentence, he is very likely to be irrelevant to Kaifeng Jews. Siderumhk (talk) 07:28, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I can't find any mention of him in my genealogy books on the Kaifeng Jews. So, I doubt he was a Jew. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 08:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

"the community was known by their Han Chinese neighbors as adherents of Tiaojinjiao (挑筋教), meaning, loosely, the religion which removes the sinew (a reference to kashrut)"

As a person growing up fully immersed in a Mandarin speaking environment (Taiwan) for the first 23 years of my life, and continuing on in the next 30 years to interact in Chinese speaking communities as well as reading extensively Chinese language books and watching Chinese news media from both China and Taiwan, I have never encountered the term Tiaojinjiao (挑筋教) more than one or two times, and only in the most obscure and arcane references such as this Wiki entry. Judaism has always been simply referred to as 犹太教 (Judaism derived from the sound of the word). If the above quoted sentence was meant to pertain to how Judaism was called in the 11th or 15th Century, I would have no opinion. But its context, the entire paragraph, clearly talks about the modern reference to Judaism and the Jewish community in Chinese, and this reference to the absurd Tiaojinjiao (挑筋教) is preposterous. Ask any modern day Chinese speaker if he knows what Tiaojinjiao is! If your intention was to refer to the name of Judaism used in 11th Century China, please make it explicit and less confusing.

Ycchao (talk) 02:26, 11 June 2010 (UTC) June 10, 2010

actually your rant is irrelavant- this article is specifically talking about the jews who arrived in China hundreds of years ago, not modern European jews not from China. Judaism was referred to as Zhuhu in medieval times in China, not as "youtai jiao" 犹太教. the kaifeng community was always called Tiaojinjiao (挑筋教), never as 犹太教. "Youtai jiao", is a relatively recent term, used to describe foreign jews as contact increased during recent centuries.DÜNGÁNÈ (talk) 21:36, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

DNA testing

I have removed this section because neither of the quoted sources give reference to where they got the information from. This page states that as far back as the 1980s Kaifeng Jews took DNA tests that confirmed their Semitic origins. But, again, it doesn't provide any source either. Another reason why I removed it is because some of the information was incorrect. It was stated that the Jews believe that their ancestors originally arrived during the 8th century. This is not so. The Jews actually have more than one origin myth that they follow. The 1489 inscription says they arrived in the Song Dynasty (960-1279). The 1512 inscription says the Han (206 BCE-220CE). The Jew Ai Tian told Matteo Ricci in 1605 an anachronistic story of how they had arrived with Tamerlane "800 years ago." However, Tamerlane died before he could attack China in 1405, only 200 years prior. The 1663 inscription says the Zhou Dynasty (1046–256 BC). During the early 1990s, the descendants of the Jews claimed they had fled the Crusaders to China in 1099. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 22:07, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I have removed the newly added genetics testing section (again) because the source is unreliable. As you can see from above, there have been several articles to mention the Jews' supposed genetic connection to the Jews of Armenia, Iraq, and Iran. The problem, however, is that there is no ultimate source for this study--i.e. a peer-reviewed science paper reporting the findings. For instance, this article states:

A recent article that appeared in Hong Kong’s Chinese language paper, Ta Kung Po, makes reference to the municipal authority’s investigation into the legitimacy of the claims. A report compiled in the 1980’s, by authorities in Kaifeng, references the use of DNA testing on ten families, including that of Zhao Pingyu. The results indicated that while these Jews intermarried, “the Jews who were in Kaifeng mainly came from the areas around the two rivers in Iraq. They were also quite close to those Jews in Armenia and the Arab world. A rough estimate was conducted by the authority in Kaifeng...there were 618 such people.” The significance of these tests is that there is now apparently scientific proof to connect these people with their Jewish lineage.

It mentions the name of a newspaper, but neglects to name the "report compiled in the 1980s." Prof. Xu Xin of Nanjing university, an expert on the Kaifeng Jews, has told me that no one takes that newspaper report seriously. In addition, these DNA tests are not mentioned in any of the numerous books I have on the the Jews of China. One of them is as recent as this year (2012). --Ghostexorcist (talk) 15:08, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Interesting. It seemed a little far fetched, seeing as they have been assimilated for quite some time and were only a small community to begin with. I just searched around the Web and could find no reference to the research. And there is no "contact us" link on the webpage for that article! Dubious mass media propaganda...--Ubikwit (talk) 16:26, 27 November 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit

There was a geneticist from Israel who was supposed to do genetic testing in 2009, but the Chinese government was giving him problems. To my knowledge, none of the tests have ever been performed. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 17:16, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Yue Fei Tatoo

Please add the source for the tattoo on Yue Fei's back. It was first reported in the book by Tiberiu Weisz, "The Kaifeng Stone Inscription"

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NPOV

"Little of the written works of the Kaifeng Jews have survived." I would like to delete this statement. It is not neutral to characterize the number of words qualitatively. Four or five works is a little or a lot, depending on whether you compare to the number of extant works in Moabite. MichelleInSanMarcos (talk) 02:45, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

MichelleInSanMarcos, thanks for your contributions. The information about the haggadah is an interesting addition to the article. I've made a couple of small changes, I hope that's ok.

The WP:NPOV policy is sometimes thought to mean that Wikipedia should employ only neutral language and statements. But the core concept is that we accurately and transparently convey what reliable sources say about the subject, without bias from our own opinions. If two very reliable sources contradict each other, we explain both sides, rather than try to pick the most "correct" or "neutral" one. In this case, the source you cited literally says "Today little remains" of the community and their written works. It's fairly obvious that the quantitative comparison is in relation to the estimated number of previously-existing works of the community that have now been lost, not to other bodies of work. I'm not saying that the statement must remain in the article, but removing it because you personally disagree would actually be an example of not following WP:NPOV.

I changed the "Kaifeng manuscripts" back from a list format to paragraph format. In general I think it's preferable to use prose when possible. Also, the list had mixed sentence fragments with full sentences, which should be avoided. I also changed the capitalization of "haggadah", and switched the external link you added to point directly to the existing web page, because the archive.org link, at least on my computer, didn't actually display the PDF preview.

--IamNotU (talk) 14:36, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

IamNotU (talk) Thank you so much for letting me learn from my own error by pointing out how I inadvertently violated NPOV when I decided that the reviewer's published choice of word was pejorative. You are correct that the published reports all characterize the number similarly (few!). Thank you for finding the link that would best display on more operating systems. MichelleInSanMarcos (talk) 23:39, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Manuscripts - assumption that these are the same: "Judeo-Perisan" and "Jewish Persian hand"

I ended up having to piece together information from the review, the article, and the HUC web page to determine that the HUC library in Cincinnati was the Klau; I also had to hunt down that Judeo-Persian means lettering, not a transcription of a Judaeo-Persian spoken dialect (Judeo-Iranian_languages), so is almost certainly what reviewer David Stern reviewer means when he writes "Jewish-Persian hand." MichelleInSanMarcos (talk) 23:44, 27 November 2019 (UTC) MichelleInSanMarcos (talk) 23:49, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Manuscripts -- grouping for codices?

Perhaps the "Kaifeng codex" could include a grouping or at least a reference to these because there is a common attribute related to the occurrence and characterization of diacritic vowels in old Hebrew manuscripts: Leningrad_Codex and Aleppo_Codex. "Gibberish"-- the term used in the article--also turns out to be a term used to describe these two codices: Jordan_Lead_Codices and Voynich_manuscript. MichelleInSanMarcos (talk) 23:47, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

"Modern Hebrew is written without vowels"

This makes it sound as though Biblical Hebrew is written with vowels. Vowels are optional in written Hebrew. Does this really need a citation? It would be like citing that English writing uses five vowels: a e i o u to represent vowel sounds. What does need citing is that "a literate Hebrew speaker can disregard these markings..." It may be true, but there is likely not a published finding or item that validates it. It would be like saying that a literate speaker of English can read the pledge of allegiance in either lower-case or upper-case letters. Would that need a citation? Perhaps what the article needs is a link to an article about the use of vowels in written Hebrew or at least a description of the structure of the Hebrew alphabet and writing system. MichelleInSanMarcos (talk) 04:54, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

MichelleInSanMarcos, I'm the one who added that "citation needed" template. It was meant to cover the unsourced information about the codex, not so much about Hebrew, i.e.:

The codex is notable in that, while it ostensibly contains vowels, it was clearly copied by someone who did not understand them. While the symbols are accurate portrayals of Hebrew vowels, they appear to be placed randomly, thereby rendering the voweled text as gibberish. [...] the consonants are written correctly, with few scribal errors.[citation needed]

--IamNotU (talk) 02:31, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

This reference maintains that the errors in consonants are lamed-resh l~r alternation. Stern, David (Spring 2013). "Why Is This Haggadah Different?". Jewish Review of Books. Archived from the original on 26 November 2019. Is that the citation that would work? MichelleInSanMarcos (talk) 13:20, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Adding photo of a Kaifeng manuscript?

The photo has a logo, but the material in it is not copyrighted. Can it be included? Perhaps a link to it could be included, but where? This looks like the book of names. https://web.archive.org/web/20100528065115/http://www.huc.edu/libraries/exhibits/rbr/images/yt00042t.jpg MichelleInSanMarcos (talk) 13:22, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

The material itself is too old for copyright but HUC have owned the documents since the early 20th-century. Any scans of the documents are their exclusive property. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 13:09, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Surname Identification

The line says that modern Jews are "identifiable today" by the Ming Dynasty emperor-given surnames, but this seems faulty. These are all extremely common Chinese surnames, and the way this is framed makes it sound as if people who have those surnames today in China are likely Jewish, which is obviously untrue. I think the goal is to say that these names are still held by modern Kaifeng Jews, but this is not clear. The quote comes from the original citation given in 2009, but this information is not included in the more academic current citation. Maybe this sentence could be removed / rephrased? InstantRamenNoodle (talk) 02:42, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Simcha Jacobovici

Similarly, in the documentary Quest for the Lost Tribes, by the Canadian filmmaker Simcha Jacobovici, the film crew visits the home of an elderly Kaifeng Jew who describes the recent history of the Kaifeng Jews, shows some old photographs, and shows his identity papers which state that he is a member of the Jewish ethnic group.

I've used a dozen different combinations over three hours doing a google search for an RS indeed any source that might corroborate this. The film itself is hardly mentioned anywhere. Rather than keep this up indefinitely with a tag, I'm putting it here. If someone can find an RS then it can be re-added. Nishidani (talk) 20:30, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Unclear what this passage has to do with the price of chips

I have erelocated here for the moment the following passage, which is clearly taken from Tiberiu Weisz's book which is not RS, unfortunately.

Two of the stelae refer to a famous tattoo written on the back of Song Dynasty General Yue Fei. The tattoo, which reads "boundless loyalty to the country" (simplified Chinese: 尽忠报国; traditional Chinese: 盡忠報國; pinyin: jìn zhōng bào guó), first appeared in a section of the 1489 stele talking about the Jews' "boundless loyalty to the country and Prince". The second appeared in a section of the 1512 stele talking about how Jewish soldiers and officers in the Chinese armies were "boundlessly loyal to the country."

Yue Fei defended Kaifeng in 1127, and therefore would be relevant if some secopndary source discussed this in connection with the terms in the stele which use the same characters he had tattoed on him. But so far I can't find one. Nishidani (talk) 16:09, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

What work?

(Scholars specializing in the study of the history and subculture of Judaism in premodern China (Sino-Judaica) have noted )surprising similarities between this work and the liturgy of the Kaifeng Jews, (descendants of Persian Jewish merchants who settled in the Middle Kingdom during the early Song dynasty.)

• I have corrected the reference to conform with that of the page.
• This passage is plunbked into the middle of the text, adding repetitive language (see brackets)
• Kaifeng Jews is linked when it is the topic pof the article.
• In context there is nothing to make clear to the reader what this work refers to.

So it is seriously flawed in several respects. Try to state what you wante added here. Nishidani (talk) 20:54, 2 February 2023 (UTC) (2) Likewise adding an extended passage on Maimonides when we know nothing of a connection between his works and the Kaifeng Jews amounts to just adding speculative 'stuffing'Nishidani (talk) 21:09, 2 February 2023 (UTC)